A three-part question was posed (ARM), and partially answered, regarding the above passage. It has raised some interesting ideas that need to be investigated further, so this is my response to the same question. I concur with his sentiments that the whole Bible as we have it today forms the inspired Word of God and that this essay is a personal exploration, and is not intended to judge and condemn anyone else’s dearly-held views. As iron sharpens iron, just as his essay has roused curiosity in me, perhaps this rejoinder will likewise further the discussion.
At the outset the question(s) is as follows:
1. What does the measuring of the temple mean in practical terms? (11:1)
2. What does the trampling of the holy city signify? (11:2)
3. Is the ‘trampling of the holy city’ the fulfilment of Luke 21:24, the ‘times of the Gentiles’?
A fourth part that was not addressed was:
4. Who are the two witnesses? What is the significance of dressing in sackcloth? What is symbolised by the ‘two olive trees’ and the ‘two lampstands’? What does standing before the ‘Lord of the earth’ signify?
The passage in question:
11 And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth. (NWT Reference Bible 1984)
John was asked to measure three things – the sanctuary, the altar and those worshipping there – but not the courtyard of the Gentiles.
Intrinsic to this discussion is the matter of timing and chronology. Which temple was John asked to measure? Therefore, when does this trampling take place? What do we know about the Gentile times? And this period of 42 months, 1,260 days, 3½ days, ‘time, times and half a time’ – is this one period of time or several different periods, literal or symbolic, and either way, is the fulfilment past or yet future? This is a matter that must be addressed in some way.
Chronology
As humans, not only do we crave certainty, but we are curious beings who love to know what is happening and why, and what will happen next and when. It gives us a feeling of security; we like to plan ahead so that we can be prepared. Jesus’s disciples were no different. They wanted to know when these things would be (Matt 24:3). A few days later, after his resurrection, they still wanted to know – now are you restoring the kingdom to Israel? they asked (Acts 1:6). In each instance Jesus’s answer was markedly different. In the first instance he said that he did not know (Matt 24:36); in the second he told them that it was none of their business (Acts 1:7). This in itself is revealing. If, by applying a mathematical formula to an ancient prophecy of Daniel (which he as the Logos had likely transmitted), it was possible to calculate the date of his parousia, then in saying ‘I do not know’ means either that he lacked the intelligence to perform the arithmetic, or that he was lying. Both suppositions are absurd. However, after his resurrection, it seems likely that this information had been revealed to him, as suggested by his second answer:
He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. (Acts 1:7)
The idea that the Father has the right to keep certain information confidential was not a new idea. In concluding a covenant with his people when in Moab, it was made clear that they, the Israelites, would not know everything.
“The things concealed belong to Jehovah our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons to time indefinite, that we may carry out all the words of this law. (Deut 29:29)
They were given sufficient insight to offer acceptable worship to Jehovah, but they needed the humility to accept that they would never know everything. This engendered modesty and trust in their God. This remains the case today. Knowledge of times and seasons are still in the domain of the Father. Whilst it is good to be curious, we are not qualified to pronounce on dates, events, sequences, or anything else. Jesus’s advice is to stay awake and be prepared, because we do not know when the master will return; indeed if we think we have worked it out, then that in itself is proof that we are wrong. At an hour you do not expect, he said (Matt 24:50, 25:13). The apostle Paul expands on this in his second letter to the Thessalonians. Paraphrasing verses 1-4 of chapter two, he writes that concerning the presence of Jesus and the day of the Lord, anyone who thinks that he has worked it out, that it has already happened, and has thus installed himself as God in the temple of God, is the man of lawlessness. This one will be annihilated by Jesus ‘by the majesty of his arrival’ (v8 – BSB). This is a stark warning! Another passage from Deuteronomy seems to be the inspiration for Paul’s words:
“‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’ (Deut 18:20-22)
There have been many dates proposed for many things, this being a prominent feature of the Second Adventist movement of the nineteenth century. An Englishman, J.A. Brown, proposed and published the period of 2,520 years in 1823. There was 1844, ‘the great disappointment’, of the Millerites. The dates 1874/78/81/1914 were of Nelson Barbour, and subsequently adopted in full by Russell. There was Rutherford’s re-purposing of 1914, plus his 1918, 1919, 1925 dates amongst others*, and Franz’s 1975, as well as a million and one other teachings by all sorts of religious leaders, groups and religions. All have been and gone, so far, and what Jesus and his Father thinks of these is quite clear from scripture.
* According to Rutherford, the 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11 ran from the date of his release from prison in 1918 to a date in 1922 when he just happened to have arranged a convention at Cedar Point. Is that what we might call self-fulfilling prophecy?
The point is that as soon as we think we have a date, event, or a sequence of events starting with a date or a specific occurrence, then we start to lose our urgency and trust in our Father. We focus on human reasoning and this diminishes our faith in Jesus, our humility, and our appreciation of God’s grace. Everlasting life is achieved through faith in Jesus, repentance and baptism, not through being clever with scripture, prophesying and powerful works (Matt 7:21-23). All interpretations of Revelation that require it to be written before or after a certain date or event must be viewed with great caution.
The Measurements
With that warning out of the way, let us return to the passage in question. What was John asked to measure? The sanctuary, the altar and the worshippers. It is not possible to state, with complete certainty, when the Revelation was written. A late date towards the end of the first century seems most likely and is widely accepted. At that point there was no temple in Jerusalem to measure. John was in exile on Patmos. He was not of priestly stock so would not have had access to the sanctuary, and anyway its measurements were already well-known. Measuring the literal sanctuary, had he been able, would not have appreciably revealed anything new. The temple in Jerusalem was the centre of the worship of Jehovah, in the national capital. Following the return from Babylon, the Jews were tenants, effectively paying rent, initially to the Persians and finally to the Romans. Then, with the death of Jesus, the old covenant that bound them to their God was nailed to the stake (Col 2:14) and replaced by the new covenant, inscribed on hearts (Heb 8, Jer 31), and enacted at Pentecost AD 33. This was with the Israel of God, a multi-ethnic group from all the nations who were, and are, adopted as God’s children through faith, repentance and baptism. For these worshippers there is no physical temple. It is a spiritual arrangement.
The Temple
In the Greek, there are two words that typically get translated as ‘temple’; hieron (Strong 2411) refers to the entire temple complex, including the courtyards, colonnades, porticoes, the lot. The other word is naos (Strong 3485) and this refers specifically to the temple sanctuary, the Holy and Most Holy, the presence of God himself, where only the priests were to enter under strict terms and conditions. In his gospel, John uses both words. In chapter two, for example, Jesus was in the hieron (likely the Court of Gentiles) when he drove out the merchants. In his discussions with the Jews Jesus used the word naos with reference to his dismantling and rebuilding of the temple (sanctuary). Unfortunately many translations do not differentiate these two words to allow the casual reader to know the difference. NWT translates both as ‘temple’ whereas BSB, for example, gives us ‘temple courts’ and ‘temple’, respectively. This is important. There is no record that Jesus ever visited the naos whilst on earth; he had no authority to do so. The word hieron does not appear in Revelation. In our verse here, NWT (2013) correctly gives us ‘temple sanctuary’ as its rendering of naos. John is to measure the Holy and Most Holy, the altar therein, likely the incense altar in the Holy, and those worshipping in it. Who are these?
The Worshippers
The answer is in Revelation chapter seven. John sees a great crowd that no man was able to number. They emerge from the great tribulation waving palm branches and wearing white robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb. They are in his naos (see ftn to 7:15 NWTR, and note the inconsistency of translation), rendering sacred service day and night. They are in his presence, in his sanctuary and not in any courtyards, earthly or otherwise. That would require the use of the word hieron! In a preview of Revelation 21, God spreads his tent over them and the Lamb will guide them to water of life. In Revelation 22:14 we are told that those who wash their robes have the authority to go to the tree (sing.) of life, which is in the city, New Jerusalem. If they do not enter, they remain without along with the scum of humanity (v15); there are only two locations.
What does it mean to measure the worshippers? BSB goes with ‘count the number of worshippers there’ but this adds a verb (to count) that is not in the Greek so is somewhat interpretative. How does one measure people? Barnes explains that John was to ‘take a correct estimate of their character; of what they professed; of the reality of their piety; of their lives, and of the general state of the church considered as professedly worshipping God’. Ellicott tells us that the ‘gist of the measurement is the preservation of the true, invisible Church, the Church within the Church; and everything necessary to the worship – Temple, altar, worshippers – all are reserved’. This ties in nicely with the idea that a great crowd is not so big as to be impossible to count, but that only the Lord knows who truly belong to him (2 Tim 2:19).
Barnes very succinctly sums up this section of three measurements, and I can do no better than he:
1. to take a just estimate of what constitutes the true church, as distinguished from all other associations of people;
2. to institute a careful examination into the opinions in the church on the subject of sacrifice or atonement – involving the whole question about the method of justification before God;
3. to take a correct estimate of what constitutes true membership in the church; or to investigate with care the prevailing opinions about qualifications for membership.
There are some two billion nominal Christians on the earth today, give or take a few. Clearly there are not two billion Christians sharing the gospel message, and spontaneously bearing the fruitage of the holy spirit. The Global North would be a much nicer place if they were! Who are Christ’s true followers? Who truly exercise faith in his life, death and resurrection? Do they belong to a specific religion, society or group? It is not for us to know. It is Jehovah who reads hearts and knows us better than we know ourselves. Is not Psalm 139 so scary and comforting all at once? And if we were to try and determine who is in and who is out, well that really is problematic. There is only one lawgiver and judge… so who are you to judge your neighbour? (James 4:12). You can feel James’s indignation! Was it not his half-brother who warned of the awful consequences of us judging each other (Matt 7:1-2)?
Trampling of Jerusalem
The source of this comment comes from our Lord himself, and is recorded at Luke 21:24. It says:
‘and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.’
What then did Jesus mean when he said that Jerusalem would be trampled by the nations? Shortly after the death of Josiah, Judah lost its independence and never regained it. That it was trampled by the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans all fits in with the visions recorded in Daniel chapters two and seven. This is solid ground.
In his context Jesus is foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. The evidence is strong (Josephus et al) that the destruction of the temple and city was total. Not a stone was left upon a stone (Matt 24:2). So why, or indeed how, would the nations continue to trample a city that had been destroyed? What would be the purpose? On the one hand, Jesus is saying that it will be flattened with no remaining survivors as they would have been ‘led captive into all the nations’, yet on the other hand, that the nations would continue to trample it for an appointed time. It seems rather contradictory. However, if we consider what Jerusalem with its temple represented then a satisfactory answer can be proposed that acknowledges a separate destruction from an ongoing trampling.
Jerusalem was the physical capital of the remainder of the nation of Israel, Judah, and its temple was where the Jews worshipped Jehovah. From its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar in 587/6 BC until its destruction by Titus in AD 70 it was trampled according to the prophecies of Daniel. Judah was no longer an independent nation; the Jews were effectively tenants in their own home. However, the Law was nailed to the stake along with Jesus and at Pentecost AD 33 the old covenant that bound the children of Israel exclusively to Jehovah was re-purposed as a new covenant that no longer required a physical temple with its priests and liturgies. Adoption into the new covenant was by water and spirit; the Jews were given first refusal (Dan 9:27), and then in AD 36 the Gentiles were welcomed into this covenantal arrangement. This is the Israel of God, a multi-ethnic, global family of worshippers who are adopted as children of God through faith in Jesus, repentance and baptism. Whoever they are and wherever they live they worship God through the one mediator, Jesus, in his role as the great High Priest, as so eloquently explained in the letter to the Hebrews. Jerusalem, the physical city in the Middle East, has no relevance, yet the concept of a spiritual Jerusalem is fundamental for everyone in Christ.
The temple is replaced by Christ’s body and his church; Jesus is the foundation, his followers are God’s temple (1 Cor 3:11, 16); worshippers are defined as being in Christ (Jew and Gentile); Paul calls this the ‘Israel of God’ (Gal 6:16); the physical city no longer holds covenant status. The political trampling of a geographic city is too small in this new covenant framework.
Right from the beginning, those who have desired to worship in spirit and truth have been oppressed by religious systems. In the first century it was Judaism that was the driving force behind this persecution – Jews, the priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Sanhedrin; their own brothers. Ever since, those taking the lead in persecuting those who seek Bible truth has, predominately, been other putative ‘Christian’ religions and not least by the Roman Catholic Church. It seems reasonable to conclude that if the old covenant city could no longer be trampled after AD 70, then the trampling that continues must represent the suppression of Christ’s genuine disciples, the Israel of God with its spiritual capital, by organised religion. This era will end with the parousia and the revealing of New Jerusalem.
Therefore, we can say that Jerusalem is no longer a geographic location but a present spiritual identity. At Galatians 4:26 Paul tells us that ‘the Jerusalem above is free and she is our mother’. Using the allegory of Hagar and Sarah, slavery and freedom, Paul emphasises the origin of this identity. It is from God, not earth. Note too that he writes in the present tense. For him and his audience this was a present reality, as he states ‘you, brothers, are children of the promise’ (v28).
At Hebrews 12:22, the author identifies ‘heavenly Jerusalem’. He says ‘But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.’ As believers they have already come to Mount Zion, a present spiritual participation in which the emphasis is worship, and access to God along with the community of angels.
New Jerusalem is the final manifestation of God dwelling with his people. It descends from heaven to the earth and is the consummation of what has gone before. It is the bride of Christ.
These three descriptions show us a city through three different lenses. Paul tells us who we are; Hebrews: where we belong; Revelation: what we will become. The focus shifts away from geography to community. When Revelation 11:2 tells of the ‘holy city’ being trampled this confirms that Jerusalem is still being trampled but it is not the same Jerusalem. It refers to the ongoing oppression of God’s true people.
This idea of genuine disciples of Christ being suppressed, persecuted and marginalised by nominal believers aligns well with Scripture. For instance Jesus warned that ‘they will put you out of the synagogues’ and ‘anyone who kills you will think that they are offering service to God’ (John 16:2). Paul spoke of a ‘form of godliness but denying its power’ (2 Tim 3:5) and that savage wolves will enter and arise ‘from among your own number’ (Acts 20:29-30). In Revelation, the ‘holy city’ is trampled for 42 months (11:2), the wild beast wages war on the holy ones (13:7), and Babylon the Great is a corrupt religious system from which the faithful are urged to escape – ‘Get out of her, my people’ (18:4).
After AD 70, the event that Jesus is referring to in the context of this comment, it continued to be trampled, but by then the focus of worship had moved away from the physical to a spiritual nation, the Israel of God. Ellicott, quoted above, mentions the true invisible church within the church. Worship that is acceptable to God is not based on religious membership, outward piety, observance of rituals, obedience to direction, reaching out, donating funds or anything else. This is what defines religion. Organised religion has seized upon these ideas to control and coerce whilst amassing great wealth and power. Quietly believing in Jesus, living a modest and penitent life, whilst reading and studying the Bible so as to prove to oneself the good and perfect and acceptable will of God (Rom 12:2), whilst sharing the gospel message, the glorious good news about the Christ, in a personal and natural way, is not acceptable to the governing bodies of these powerful organisations. They love to enslave the flock whilst calling it spirituality. Therefore the most hateful persecution unleashed on Christ’s faithful followers has been by Christians (and I use this term cautiously – it has a cool and distant relationship with the NT).
A few examples – the Waldenses were declared to be heretics for translating parts of Scripture into the vernacular and preaching publicly. The Albigenses rejected clerical authority and paid a terrible price. The Lollards were followers of John Wycliffe. They were imprisoned, tortured and burned for possessing Scripture, reading, copying, and preaching. Jan Hus was burned at the stake, William Tyndale was strangled and burned in Belgium. The list is endless. Who was behind these atrocities, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades and so on? Was it not the Roman church, that which claimed to represent the Son of God, yet by its actions and doctrines so clearly demonstrated that it was anything but Christ-like?
Has anything changed? Not really. Strangulation and burning at the stake has gone, but the attitude behind it is still alive and well. Whilst physical persecution still exists in some parts of the world, religious freedom generally receives legal protection, the monopolistic churches are losing power, and with the digital revolution it is impossible to restrict access to Scripture and the plethora of tools that bring it to life for the enquiring mind. So in place of the stake, we have social and institutional coercion, shunning and excommunication, and pressure to conform to denominational theology, interpretation and practice.
Can we say, then, that those who have received, and continue to receive in modern incarnations, such treatment from those who claim to represent God and Christ are Ellicott’s invisible church within the church? It is a suggestion with some merit.
Hence, those worshipping inside the temple sanctuary are largely invisible, not part of the established church, and yet appearing to be so to the untrained eye. They look like ‘Christians’, but as they do not conform to political direction are in some way trampled by the nations. One is reminded of the wheat and weeds parable, where both are left to grow together until harvest-time when the true identity will be readily apparent (Matt 13).
The Courtyard
That John is told not to measure the courtyard outside of the sanctuary suggests a distinction between the holy and the profane. He is to ‘leave it out’; this is a limp expression – throw, cast, banish, eject are more in keeping with the Greek word (ekbale 1544). That it is not measured suggests that it is outside of God’s protection. It has been given over (edothe 1325) to the nations (ethnos 1484 – a race, specially a foreign one, Gentiles, by implication, pagan). It is not stated by whom it is given – ‘it properly pertains to them as their own’ (Barnes). Those who worship there are to be regarded as pagans and strangers. Although it is in close proximity to the sanctuary, and those worshipping there may appear to be righteous and dutiful, the reality is very different.
The 42 Months
Many theologians have tried to be specific when it comes to the 42 months and 1,260 days. Some have noted that Vespasian’s Jewish war lasted about three and a half years, from Spring AD 67 to September AD 70. Others note the period of the popes from AD 539 to AD 1799 (Belisarius to Napoleon) when applying a ‘day for a year’. And many more besides. The fact is that we do not know and we cannot know because this knowledge is in the jurisdiction of the Father. Jerusalem is still being trampled on, although it seems unlikely that God has any interest in the modern city of Jerusalem. Revelation is written in signs and it is therefore inadvisable to apply literal values to the numbers given. Can we be comforted by the fact that this trampling is for a definite period, will not persist forever, and that it will end in God’s own due time? This explanation requires faith, patience and humility. Perhaps John is using a deliberate literary device, or ploy, to separate the truly faithful from the arrogant, those who think that they are so clever that they have worked it all out in advance?
What About Romans 11?
In his piece, my learned friend states that ‘Luke 21:24 has no direct link to any other scripture in the Bible’. I agree with this statement. There is, however, a parallel idea explored by Paul in Romans 11. Having discussed the idea that a remnant of Israel would be saved by grace (v5), he embarks upon the illustration of a vine that can have branches lopped off and grafted in. ‘However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous’ (v11 – BSB). Branches that lack faith are lopped off, branches of faith are grafted in. And then in v25 he says ‘A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in’. This seems to preview the idea at Revelation 6:11 where the souls of those slain were told to rest ‘until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed…’. What is this number? In neither case are we told and applying it to 144,000, ‘from all the tribes of Israel’ seems problematic in many ways. The point being made is that the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ is a political expression of contempt for God’s people that was directed initially towards Jerusalem, as foretold by Daniel, and latterly a spiritual Jerusalem. Yet from among these Gentiles a full number will come in, and when that number is complete the eventual salvation of Israel is anticipated, pointing to future reconciliation and unity in Christ. Yes, the Gentiles oppress God’s people, yet many Gentiles are saved in great numbers, and then Israel can be restored. For as Paul says at Romans 9:6 ‘not all who are descended from Israel are Israel’.
This idea of provoking the Jews to jealousy is not from Paul. In John 10, Jesus is addressing the Jews and Pharisees who have expelled the once-blind man from the temple for bearing witness to the miracle he had experienced. He is not subtle in his description of the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. And even if he scatters the sheep, well that’s not terminal. In a prediction of the Gentiles becoming his, he says that ‘I have other sheep’. They will become part of the one flock; he seems to be inciting jealousy on the part of the Jews. If you are not interested, well I know of others who are!
The Two Witnesses
Who are these two witnesses (martysin 3144)? This is a question that has confounded the most brilliant theologians and devout worshippers for many centuries. There is still no consensus. This tells me that we are not expected to know, that this is information that is not required for now. But what are these two witnesses? They witness for a specific period of time, they are dressed in sackcloth and are two olive trees and two lampstands. A healthy tree produces fruit. It does so spontaneously as a result of the tree being alive and well. If our faith is genuine, alive and well, we will naturally produce fine fruit. This is an illustration often used by our Lord himself. ‘By their fruits you will recognise them’ (Matt 7:20); the seed that falls on fine soil bears fruit (Matt 13:23); addressing the chief priests and elders he told them that they would be stripped of the kingdom, it being given to a nation producing its fruits (Matt 21:43). The holy spirit, when it is active in us naturally produces fruitage (Gal 5:22). The lesson is clear – it is not what we say, who we claim to be, but what we are. Fruit cannot be forced. Fruit grows because the tree is alive and well.
A lighted lampstand does not try to be bright; when lit, it just shines and illuminates a dark space. What do we know about light? Jesus is the light that came into the world (John 1:9). ‘I am the light of the world’ (John 8:12). He expected his followers to shine brightly too. ‘You are the light of the world… let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven’ (Matt 5:14-16). In Revelation, seven lampstands represent the seven churches (1:20).
If these two witnesses are bearing fruit and illuminating darkness in a hostile world, then it seems reasonable to conclude that they represent God’s faithful, spirit-filled people, who bear witness and live a life of repentance and humility. Why two? Because under the Mosaic Law two witnesses was the minimum number required to legally establish a matter (Deut 19:15). Their testimony, in this case prophesying, is valid. That they are killed represents the world’s rejection of truth, and their being raised up guarantees that salvation is assured for all those.
So rather than trying to guess who these two represent, we make greater progress by looking at what they represent, and appreciating what a faithful witness looks like. We have light that shines; fruit that grows; testimony that stands, that cannot be silenced by suffering; vindication of God’s guarantees.
Summary
John is asked to measure the sanctuary, altar and those worshipping therein
Measuring suggests reality and protection
We do not need to know how many; the Lord knows those who belong to him. Measuring the worshippers suggest character and faith
The courtyard of the Gentiles is not to be measured. It is to be ‘cast clear out’ - NWTR
Two witnesses are required to legally establish a matter
They are the two olive trees, bearing fine fruit
They are the two lampstands shedding light
The holy city is trampled for 42 months, a time period without clear Scriptural definition. It gives us confidence that it will not continue indefinitely; we are assured that it is for a time that has an end
The literal city of Jerusalem is trampled by the nations according to the prophecies of Daniel
After AD 33 Jerusalem continues to be trampled but it is now a different Jerusalem, heavenly Jerusalem
A personal experience of trampling
In the last few years so-called elders have lied to me, lied about me, accused me of disloyalty, of being double-tongued, and in the face of personal tragedy have turned around and walked away, treating my wife and daughter as of no consequence and abandoning me to pick up the pieces alone. This from men who stand before the congregation claiming to be ‘in the truth’ and representing the God of love. Am I bitter? Not at all. I was very angry at the time but in fact, in a strange way I feel grateful. It has opened my eyes to the true nature of religion and I have embarked upon a new journey in which, with the veil removed, the Bible and its message of salvation and grace shine so brightly that it is almost overwhelming.